Leading Polish intelligence officer on the Belarusian KGB, Ivan Tsertsel, and dialogue with Minsk
How does Polish intelligence assess the level of danger from the Belarusian KGB, do the special services of the two countries communicate, and how did negotiations for the release of Andrzej Poczobut proceed? Deputy Minister — Coordinator of Polish Special Services General Radosław Kujawa was a guest of the «Didaskalia» project, writes Reform.news.
Radosław Kujawa. Screenshot from video
According to Radosław Kujawa, the greatest threat to Poland's security is the aggressive policy of the Russian Federation, and to a much lesser extent — Belarus.
«Russia is a state that genuinely considers military solutions to achieve political goals.
Belarus does not threaten us in this context, and the main task of the Belarusian services is to protect the current regime.
For this reason, they view us as a threat from the largest neighbor in the European Union and NATO. In this context, they consider the Belarusian diaspora in both Poland and throughout Europe a threat,» — responded Radosław Kujawa.
The Belarusian KGB is dangerous for Poland, Kujawa concludes, but no more dangerous than Russian structures.
Nevertheless, this situation, according to the general, requires certain decisions from the Polish leadership.
«From the perspective of the functioning of our two states, the challenge for us — people who grew up in solidarity and the fight against totalitarianism — remains getting used to the fact that we have neighbors whose democratic mandate is illusory.
And we must decide how to manage our relations in this reality. At the same time, noting that Belarus's sovereignty, its independence, statehood, and ability to define its own goals despite its closeness to Russia — are within the sphere of our interests,» — stated General Kujawa.
Some of the questions during the interview concerned the ethnic Pole, chairman of the Belarusian KGB, Ivan Tsertsel. What does Polish intelligence know about him?
«Lukashenka says: «Our Poles». Well, and he is his Pole. Does that make it easier for us to talk? I think that in his Polish soul, President Lukashenka's interests are the most important, and this must be understood,» — responded Kujawa.
«And on the other hand, from their point of view — we are the most interesting neighbor. They perfectly understand Russia, understand Ukraine, and can describe the essence of the capabilities of both states and their interests in this conflict. In their own way, they are part of that world. Something we also learn from, looking at the dilemmas there,» — he continued.
What are Poland's interests regarding Belarus? What pragmatic issues do the two countries need to settle?
Responding to this, Radosław Kujawa emphasized that
migration pressure on the Polish-Belarusian border has decreased. In addition, a large number of political prisoners have been released. There is also no evidence that Belarus is conducting subversive activities on Polish territory.
«This is a basis for dialogue,» — he stated. «And how Belarus itself, or how Russia, will perceive the fact that we can talk — that is a separate issue. This is more of a dilemma for the Belarusian side, and from our side, there is a psychological barrier; to the latter we need to get a little used to it.»
The host asked whether contact with Minsk is maintained at the level of special services?
«We did not hide this when working on the release of Mr. Andrzej Poczobut — this happened as a result of negotiations with Belarusians,» — responded Radosław Kujawa.
«Services have the privilege of communicating without public announcement and without issuing communiqués on this topic. We have a long border. The world we observe today looks such that it is necessary to discuss various topics with each neighbor.
We have diplomatic relations with Belarus, and the fact that we managed to achieve the release of Andrzej Poczobut — is one of the proofs that these negotiations are worth conducting,» — explained the Deputy Minister — Coordinator of Polish Special Services.
According to Kujawa, everyone conducts dialogue at a certain level.
«We see this in the example of the conflict in Iran, we see this in the example of prisoner exchanges between Ukraine and Russia, we see this in Israel's agreements with Hamas. Of course, at the end, the question of President Lukashenka's legitimacy arises.
And this is what is important from our point of view.
I'll just say this: Belarus must know that it is not threatened by aggression from the Polish side. If it is able to assure us that there will be no aggression from that side of the border either, then I think this would be of value to the Polish state,» — stated Radosław Kujawa.
Asked to elaborate on the Poczobut case and the contribution of Polish services to his release, General Kujawa explained that this story began in July 2024 in the context of a large exchange, when, at the request of the Americans, the Polish side handed over the Russian spy Pavel Rubtsov.
«Then we received assurances that they [the USA] knew our preferences and expectations, whom we most wanted to release. This process was long, and its catalyst was the fact that we managed to detain individuals for illegal activities (and in two cases directed against our interests) whom the Russians and Belarusians had contacted us about.
This allowed us to control the course of negotiations, in which the role of the Americans was very significant, as they already had proven know-how and spoke directly [with representatives of the Belarusian regime], including in Minsk.»
Kujawa called Poczobut's release «joint efforts», within which «dialogue with Belarusians was also necessary».
The interviewer asked why Polish services have not yet brought Judge Tomasz Szmydt, who fled to Belarus, to justice before Polish law?
Radosław Kujawa noted that in this case, the question lies in the forces and means that Polish special services would have to employ for this purpose. As well as the context of relations with Belarus — a state on whose territory the fugitive judge is located.
«We have a completely different assessment of international reality, a different understanding of law,» — noted the Deputy Minister — Coordinator of Polish Special Services. «However, this is our neighbor and a state with which we have — both actually and potentially — many topics for discussion.»
According to him, this is a fine line. So the possibility of maintaining dialogue is not compatible with planning «any active actions».
«I understand this answer. Is the situation similar regarding the killer of the Polish soldier on the border with Belarus?» — asked the host.
Kujawa responded that Polish special services have a lot of information about this person.
«The killer is an exotic criminal, performing his tasks on the Polish-Belarusian border, whose goal was to destabilize and create conditions for the effective implementation of migration pressure,» — he noted. «Is it advisable in this situation, even according to the meaning of international law, to request that he be extradited to us by Belarus, or even to receive assistance from that state in catching him? Especially since Belarusians constantly claim that they were supposedly unable to prevent this migration pressure,» — said Radosław Kujawa. Adding that «in the context of this incident, we are even willing to believe it, and therefore would expect cooperation.»
At the same time, the Deputy Minister — Coordinator of Polish Special Services refrained from answering the question of whether the killer of the Polish soldier is still on the territory of our country.
The host asked — does Radosław Kujawa envision Belarus as a member of the European Union in some perspective? Because a friendly buffer state on the eastern border would be in Poland's interests?
«Are we able to effectively support Ukrainian aspirations to the European Union when we already have readiness from both sides here?» — posed the counter-question the Deputy Minister — Coordinator of Polish Special Services.
«We focus on things not from the realm of fantasy, but on where our interest can be formulated and strictly pursued, disregarding the emotions of many of our compatriots,» — he stated.