Ukraine's Ambassador for Belarus: Tsikhanouskaya's position is clearly not pacifist

Yaroslav Chornohor

— Mr. Ambassador, you said in an interview that you were appointed to the position due to your expertise on Belarus. How did you react to this appointment in general?

— Actually, it was interesting from the very beginning. At first, they didn't specify which particular position was being discussed. Rather, they said there was a direction where a specialist was needed. In fact, I didn't know if I would work full-time or if I would be invited as a consultant or advisor on a voluntary basis. Then it became clear that participation in establishing communication with Belarusian democratic forces was necessary.

— How did the process of your appointment go?

— There was an interview with Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs Yevhen Perebyinis, then with the head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs himself. Then, together with Andriy Sybiha, there was an interview at the President's Office on Bankova Street. We held a meeting there, all three of us, and discussed everything. And, finally, after all that, the President and the Minister made the decision on the appointment.

Павялічыць

Yaroslav Chornohor and Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya

— Among your tasks as Ambassador-at-Large is working with the Belarusian opposition, helping civilian Belarusians and Belarusian servicemen fighting for Ukraine. Let's start from the end: how many Belarusians are fighting on our side of the front today?

— This information is not subject to disclosure. If you want to know, make a request to the Ministry of Defense.

— What if we turn the question around and ask you how many Belarusians are fighting for Russia?

— We know this question not least thanks to Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya's visit. Within the framework of this visit, there was a meeting with the leadership of the Coordination Headquarters for the Treatment of Prisoners of War. Since the structure is closely linked to the HUR (Main Directorate of Intelligence), figures were announced on their part. If I am not mistaken, this is about 2800 people. 400 or more of them have already left this land, passing into another world thanks to Ukrainian warriors.

— Are they all scattered among different units, or do they have national formations, like the Kastus Kalinouski Battalion with us?

— They have no national unit. You must understand that between Russia and Belarus, there is a regime like the "Union State." Within its framework, no single people can be singled out. This is generally very characteristic of Russians. They don't see any people separately from themselves. A big question arises here: what is this "Russian people" anyway? It's some kind of mythical concept.

There are a whole host of conquered peoples living in the territory of the entity now called the Russian Federation. Most of them have no status at all. Suppressed, colonized.

I believe that the logical development will be the fragmentation of these territories — the usual logic of the collapse of empires. Because the Russian Federation is a federation only on paper, when in fact it is an imperial entity.

Павялічыць

Fallen Belarusian fighters. Photo: Telegram / tsikhanouskaya

— Another one of your tasks is to help civilian Belarusians. In an interview with our Belarusian colleagues, you mentioned unblocking accounts of Belarusians. That, allegedly, there are difficulties due to Belarusians being placed, along with Russians, on the blacklist of people supporting aggression. How are we resolving this issue? Imagine: I am a Belarusian who came to you for help, and I say: "Mr. Yaroslav, help me with my account."

— Accounts are unblocked and opened if you have, for example, a military ID. Then they will open an account for you. Or if there is a permanent or temporary residence permit. Proof that you are legally present in Ukraine. Some procedures and checks need to be passed.

This is done to prevent Ukrainian funds from falling into the hands of the aggressor or co-aggressor. I think that in time this issue will be resolved somehow. Those Belarusians who are legally in Ukraine and spend money on the territory of our state should not experience problems with using their own funds.

— Perhaps then it would be worth initiating some bill in this context? So that civilian Belarusians don't have to constantly walk around with documents... Because sometimes I see on social media how civilian citizens of Belarus say they live in Ukraine and everything is great. The only problem is they can't open a bank account...

— This is not the task of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but we will talk to people's deputies. They are also studying this issue. It also depends on the position of the National Bank. This issue has many levels. Including the government level.

— You also spoke about plans to create an interdepartmental coordination group of Belarusians in Ukraine. Who will join it on both sides and when is this group planned to be created?

— Possibly, a large coordination group will be created with the participation of the Ukrainian side and Belarusian democratic forces. I am not a proponent of creating formal bodies that exist for the sake of existing.

In fact, after Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya's visit, we have already established normal communications with the JCC (Joint Transitional Cabinet), Tsikhanouskaya's Office, Pavel Latushka and his NAU (National Anti-Crisis Management), Bypol, who send their requests for communications on various issues, as well as proposals for sanctions, and problematic issues of Belarusians.

It all flows to me, and then we discuss it with the relevant authorities. Some of it concerns the security sphere, the migration service. This is such a Ukrainian-Belarusian format.

There is also an interdepartmental, purely Ukrainian format. There is a need to discuss specifically how to resolve the issue of expired documents or permanent residence permits for foreign citizens living here and interested in Ukraine. This includes both Belarusian volunteers and ethnic Belarusians who have lived in our territory for a long time.

Павялічыць

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya, Andriy Sybiha, and Pavel Latushka. Photo: Telegram / tsikhanouskaya

— Political scientist Yevhen Mahda said in one of his broadcasts that Tsikhanouskaya, following her visit to Kyiv, could contribute to the recruitment of Belarusians into the Ukrainian army, for example. That is, to do something more tangible than declarations and statements in the Ukrainian capital. Is she already doing this? What do you say to Mr. Yevhen's words in general?

— On the part of Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya personally and her team, there is no opposition to attracting Belarusians to our army. Forming military units is not their task, but ours. It would be good if Sviatlana's support for Ukraine transformed into assistance in recruiting for our army.

As far as I know, Sviatlana donates to the Armed Forces of Ukraine from her personal funds. In Warsaw, she participated in tactical medicine training. Her team has collected and transferred more than one batch of aid to Ukraine. Of course, this aid is not on the level of Himars or Bayraktar. But some assistance is being transferred.

It is recalled that in the past year and the year before, at the Ostroh Forum, structures of Belarusian democratic forces handed over vehicles to volunteers.

Perhaps Tsikhanouskaya's visit will inspire some part of the Belarusian democratic community to materially support Belarusian volunteers on the front in Ukraine. I would be glad of that.

— So, is this pacifism, characteristic of the overwhelming majority of so-called Russian liberals, absent in the environment of the Belarusian political opposition today?

— Tsikhanouskaya's current position is definitely not pacifist. In 2020-2022, she was somewhat detached regarding the war in Ukraine, but after the full-scale invasion, we see that Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya has moved from humanitarian involvement and manifestations of solidarity to recognizing that this war is a factor in regional security.

She has an understanding that one of the ways to liberate Belarus is through armed struggle. During her visit to the Museum of the Second World War, Tsikhanouskaya awarded a number of Ukrainian and Belarusian figures, including volunteers.

She awarded medals to representatives of the BLA (Belarusian Liberation Army). We saw members of this formation next to her. This organization dates back to the times of the Belarusian People's Republic. And together, in the future, they can be strong allies of Ukraine.

— Tell us how this visit was prepared. Because we heard Lukashenka's words about his readiness to meet with President Zelenskyy, and soon Tsikhanouskaya arrives in our capital. Shed some light on the process of preparing her visit.

— Everything didn't happen instantly. The President of Ukraine met with Sviatlana on January 25 in Vilnius. There he invited her to Kyiv.

Then work began on preparing the visit. Ukrainian authorities needed to understand what issues would be discussed, with whom they would meet, and in what format.

One of the conditions for the visit to take place was the appointment of someone authorized to work with Belarusian democratic forces. Again, so that it wouldn't be a visit for the sake of a visit. Hypothetically, Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya could have come in March. Such an option existed. But what would she talk about then? The meeting in this case would have been more symbolic. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs did not have an authorized person for communications at that time.

It was very fortunate that the visit that was being prepared coincided precisely with those statements from the current Belarusian regime. Naturally, Tsikhanouskaya's visit does not mean that we recognize her as the president of Belarus. For us, she is the head of the United Transitional Cabinet and the leader of the Belarusian democratic forces.

She is not a monopolist: there are other groups — they also have their own views. Now their 4th convocation of the Coordination Council is starting to work there.

It is important for us that they are not anti-Ukrainian. And Tsikhanouskaya heads the most structured formation of Belarusian democratic forces and has recognition in the Western world.

— Wow, they even divided this Council by convocations? A full-fledged state format...

— Yes, there is a proto-parliament, a proto-government. It is precisely because of this that communication with Tsikhanouskaya's team is desirable. If a window of opportunity for a transition of power appears, it becomes clear who to work with and who to support. Any imaginary, amorphous forces are something completely different. The state does not work like that. Proto-state institutions are needed.

— You know, you're talking about the existence of alternative centers of gravity among the Belarusian opposition. We don't want them to behave like typical Russian liberals, each with their own principled position, unable to come to an agreement. So that it's not like some advocate for a military scenario to overthrow Lukashenka, while others say: no, diplomacy should be put first. There needs to be some consensus between them...

— It is normal for democratic communities to have different opinions.

In fact, I wouldn't compare Belarusian democratic forces with Russian ones much. The democratic forces of Belarus remember 2020 and the stolen election results in which Tsikhanouskaya participated. Russians don't have such a figure. There is no person who went through elections and had the support of a large number of people.

If Nemtsov had not been killed by Kadyrov's men at the time, there would have been some hope for Russian democrats. Or at least Navalny. But since neither one nor the other is alive in the world anymore, Russian liberals are now fragmented.

— Let's break down point by point what your work with the Belarusian political opposition will specifically involve?

— One should not overestimate my role here, because I am a civil servant in a diplomatic department. Belarusian democratic forces were and will be. And, finally, they will replace the authoritarian regime in modern Belarus.

My role is to ensure Ukraine's interests in this process, to facilitate coordination of efforts with international partners.

For us, it is important that from the northern side there is a sovereign, free, independent Belarus that does not create problems for us.

— Are there Russian servicemen on Belarusian territory now? How many are there and what are they doing?

— Yes, there are. If I'm not mistaken, two large air defense bases are functioning there. There is the "Oreshnik" base, which is currently being built. More than 2,000 Russian servicemen are permanently located on the territory of Belarus. They regularly rotate.

Within the framework of the "Union State" between Moscow and Minsk, there is an agreement on joint air defense. The Russians are precisely engaged in this. They monitor Belarusian airspace.

— The head of the CPD (Center for Countering Disinformation), Andriy Kovalenko, says that all of Alexander Lukashenka's statements about pinpoint mobilization and preparations for war pose no threat. How has the Belarusian army changed qualitatively and quantitatively at this moment? Is there any real dynamic there?

— Military exercises and combat readiness assessments are constantly taking place there. During these exercises, Russian experience in the war with us is taken into account.

We all remember the time when Wagner mercenaries were interned there so that they would not be punished for Prigozhin's mutiny. In Belarus, they gradually integrated into the power structures of the Republic of Belarus. In total, there are more than a hundred of them there. They received Belarusian citizenship, new names. They serve mainly in the internal troops.

The Belarusian dictatorship is transforming its army. They have redivided their military districts. They created a new Southern district, which did not exist before. It is clear that they are geographically aimed at us.

A whole system of new special purpose centers has been developed within the internal troops. Centers designed to combat sabotage groups and partisan movements. And also aimed at suppressing potential internal public resistance to the regime.

The statement about pinpoint mobilization indeed poses no threat to us. This statement is based on the results of their inspections, as they found shortcomings in a number of military units.

— A shortage of personnel?

— Yes, I understand that the current number did not fully correspond to the tasks that Minsk sets for itself within the framework of military policy. They have an annual conscription of reserve officers. The structure of military units still has a Soviet legacy, but it already takes into account modern trends. Their brigades can quickly grow into divisions.

Last year, Belarus received new aircraft from Russia. And before that – "Polonez" systems, which are produced jointly with China. They also actively use drones.

— What kind of drones? Do they get them from Russians or do they have their own developments?

— They have their own developments too. They test Russian ones and purchase Chinese ones.

— So how many people can the Belarusian co-aggressor afford to conscript into the army today? How large can Lukashenka's army be in general?

— Currently, their number of servicemen is 65-70 thousand. At the same time, they can relatively quickly increase it to 300-350 thousand.

— Are you aware of anything about the deportation of Ukrainian children from occupied territories through the territory of Belarus? How many of our children are there? Has anyone been returned?

— The issue was discussed at the meeting between Tsikhanouskaya and Andriy Sybiha. It was also discussed with Volodymyr Zelenskyy. We are interested in obtaining information about Ukrainian children that may be available to Belarusian democratic forces. They promised to provide us with this information. There will be a conference on this issue in Canada.

There is an agreement between us and the Belarusian democratic forces that the latter will speak on our side when it comes to the abduction of our children.

— Lukashenka's regime actively profits from stolen Ukrainian grain. What can we do as a state to stop this or at least reduce the volume of the Belarusian dictator's criminal earnings?

— We cannot exert any political influence. Lukashenka's regime is absolutely not independent, as you know. On the international arena, this state is nominally separate, but in fact it is controlled by the Russian Federation. Therefore, the best recipe here is to continue destroying Russian logistics. Only in this way can the flow of goods from temporarily occupied territories to Belarus and back be stopped.

— Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya said in an interview that Belarusian partisans have good sources of information, which they could share with us if necessary. Do our relevant services cooperate with the Belarusian resistance in this regard?

— Contacts have existed since 2022. I was at a press conference of Belarusian cyber partisans in Ukraine. Already then, in 2022-2023, they spoke about existing contacts.

— In the same interview, Tsikhanouskaya used the term "brotherly peoples" when speaking about the ties between Belarusians and Ukrainians. One brotherly people has already caused us problems. In your opinion, should we view Belarusians through Tsikhanouskaya's "brotherly" lens?

— If we analyze it from a political-ideological point of view, this term is already somewhat discredited. From the Belarusian side, there are sometimes speculations that Ukraine, with its activity, encroaches on the role of an elder brother. For us, this seems ridiculous. We'd better be good neighbors than brothers.

— How is Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya regarded in the Belarusian military-volunteer community?

— Some of the Kalinouski Regiment members support her. We know that Vadim Kabanchuk, who recently served as deputy commander of the regiment, took a position in the Transitional Cabinet in August 2024. There are a number of veterans who joined the Coordination Council.

Another part of the Kalinouski Regiment members has a negative attitude towards Tsikhanouskaya, but is ready for constructive dialogue. The Belarusian Volunteer Corps absolutely does not accept her.

At the same time, volunteers are primarily servicemen. Statements about political views negatively affect their military affairs. When there were elections to the Coordination Council 2 years ago, our military leadership did not approve the participation of Belarusians in political processes. And this is logical. A volunteer, during the contract, must follow the orders of the command.

— How would you assess the mood in Belarusian society regarding the war?

— The overwhelming majority of Belarusians still remain on pacifist positions. Lukashenka attributes this to his achievements. He says that it is only thanks to him that Belarus did not directly enter the war.

I am concerned that over the years, the attitude towards us and our state is transforming. Changes are occurring under the influence of propaganda.

— Still, water grinds stone?

— Yes. These are the consequences of the work of both Russian and Belarusian regime propaganda. Currently, we do not communicate with Belarusians in any way. Unlike the times when Belarusians traveled through our territory to the sea.

— Belarus is a co-aggressor in this war. Will it pay reparations alongside Russia after our victory?

— A difficult question. Some compensation should be provided. A lot depends on what kind of Belarus we will be dealing with after the war.

Although we still don't know how the war will end. We currently have informational tension with Belarus. What if a real confrontation occurs, and we take satisfaction at the expense of destroyed military-industrial complex facilities?

— We are also destroying military-industrial complex facilities on the territory of Russia, but this does not cancel the fact that it will pay us reparations. It's just, you see, I asked this question because the same Russians are shying away from reparations in every possible way. They immediately backpedal, saying: "Uh, no. It's all Putin, we have nothing to do with it. What talks about reparations could there be?" I suspect that Belarusians think similarly. Therefore, the question arises: gentlemen, who will pay us?

— As of today, we have a full-fledged conventional war only with Russia. Belarus is a co-aggressor, but not an aggressor country.

Much will depend on its status at the end of the war. And, of course, the international situation.

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