"I'm ending the broadcast, I just can't." Kaveryna driven to fury by discussion with priest Shramko

Video screenshot: utro / YouTube

Father Aliaksandr Shramko was the guest of the latest episode of "Ordinary Morning". At a certain point, the discussion turned to the role of the Belarusian Orthodox Church and Metropolitan Veniamin personally in the regime's repressive policies.

As an example, presenter Maryna Mientusava recalled the signing of a cooperation agreement between the Ministry of Information and the BOC. Among the document's objectives is "counteracting negative work that can sometimes be carried out through publications coming from abroad."

Mientusava noted that this agreement effectively legitimizes the persecution of Belarusians for viewing independent media, including their channel.

"Why are you meddling in the media at all? Why are you meddling at all? Who are you to meddle in the media? This is absolutely... well, as a hierarch... serve, please. What do mass media have to do with it? What does journalism have to do with it? What relation do you have to it, Mr. Veniamin?" — flared up the second host, Konstantin Kaveryn.

Aliaksandr Shramko agreed that Veniamin is a protege of Lukashenka's regime. However, he expressed the opinion that the Metropolitan primarily performs ceremonial functions and his activities are not the root cause of the repressions.

"The agreement has nothing to do with this. These are the laws," — the priest noted and expressed the opinion that another person in Veniamin's place could have behaved even worse.

"Veniamin has absolutely no authority over ordinary people. Absolutely none. The Church is structured so that he has no power over people. He has power over priests. And it is this sphere that we are talking about," — argued the guest of the broadcast.

Павялічыць

Aliaksandr Shramko. Photo: Nasha Niva

Kaveryn, in turn, countered that for believers, a religious leader is a moral authority. He considers the hierarch's silence during the violence against protesters in 2020 to be a betrayal.

"Here comes the year twenty. Lukashenka had always been like that, but in the year twenty, he crossed all red lines. He truly began to kill, imprison people en masse, expel them from the country, and so on. And here you appear (addressing Shramko — NN), Kukhta, Roy appear... people appear who say: "No, this... We see everything. This contradicts all commandments... This contradicts the entire worldview that Christianity brings us. Therefore, I cannot support this, and people come to my parish and ask: "How should one regard this?".

One should view it negatively, because it's about holding onto power, and further according to the text, the law, and rights." But Veniamin — no. Well, he doesn't say that. Am I correct in understanding that this is a betrayal?"

Aliaksandr Shramko objected that in reality, the structure of the church is amorphous: for ordinary believers, their parish priest is more important than a metropolitan on TV. Moreover, according to him, one must consider the conditions in which Veniamin has to operate.

"We are actually living not in an authoritarian, but in a totalitarian country. And there are rules of the game here. If a person doesn't participate somewhere, doesn't say these necessary words, then he will simply lose his position," — explained the interlocutor and added that "the Catholic Church is now also singing along with the authorities."

"I'm getting to this, you see, all these sycophants, from one side and the other — that's why Lukashenka's regime thrives! That's what I want to say! That's exactly why it thrives, because 'well, let's sing along here, understand there, here's family, there's a cat, there's mom'," — Kaveryn fumed once again.

Павялічыць

Then-commander of the Internal Troops Mikalai Karpiankou shows Metropolitan Veniamin weapons. August 9, 2021. Photo: Ministry of Internal Affairs

"People are not heroes, you understand? You cannot demand heroism from people. Most people in Belarus — you are broadcasting for Belarus — most people there do not openly say many things they think. And they even participate in this system. If they are told to give a speech at some meeting, they will give it. They will curse inwardly, but they will give it. But this is a totalitarian society. Understand that there are always a minimum of heroes in a country. [Although,] they, of course, can set the tone," — the priest tried to explain his position.

"You speak as if you want to justify Veniamin. But I do not forgive him! I do not forgive him! Because thanks to people like Veniamin, Stalin also tortured dozens of nations. I consider him a complete scoundrel. That's all. A villain, a real villain, a liar, a traitor to the idea he supposedly stands for... Excuse my strong words. He is a villain. Because so many people died because of him! And Ukraine is being attacked, and he supports all of this!" — the host continued emotionally.

The following dialogue then took place:

— Okay, they will remove him and put someone even more odious in his place, — Aliaksandr Shramko noted.

— The new one will be a villain! What's the difference? It doesn't matter, I'm talking about Veniamin now. We won't do anything about this. I can't do anything here, — replied Konstantin.

— And what? What will this lead to?

— It will lead to nothing. At least I'm just calling things by their names. I'm trying to say it as it is. But you're saying he didn't quite listen to something somewhere.

— It's good to speak as it is in a free country. It's good to speak as it is.

— And did I leave for a free country myself, Aliaksandr?! I happily fled to a free country myself! Don't feed me bread, just let me get further from my mother's grave. And leave my father, not seeing him for six years. And wait for news from there that his heart gave out, and not be able to come to the funeral... Aliaksandr, we're going to argue ourselves to hell now. That's it. Thank you for the broadcast. Excuse this of mine, it just, you know, it hurts, it really hurts.

— It's easy to wave your fists in the studio when you're sitting there and know that nothing will happen to you for it. But people inside the country live in completely different conditions. One needs to understand that and approach it a bit differently.

These words provoked a new storm of emotions in the journalist:

"So, we don't have criminal cases? So, our relatives are not targeted? Nothing has been taken from us? Nothing will happen to me for this? Aliaksandr, what are you even saying, excuse me? Excuse me, I'm resorting to rude language, but I'm just boiling over! What does 'nothing will happen' mean? I walk around here, looking over my shoulder in this Warsaw. I tell my wife, my daughter not to tag their coordinates on Instagram. 'Nothing will happen'! Well, may God grant that nothing 'happens' to you either."

"I personally receive threats in private messages. It's just unfair," — added Maryna Mientusava.

"Well, nothing will be added or subtracted from you for waving your hands there. But if someone in Belarus starts waving their hands, it will be a significant difference for them," — noted the guest.

"We are not asking ordinary people to do this. It's just that people in power who sign documents are joining this injustice, this evil, which is what we are talking about. Thank you very much, Aliaksandr. All the best. See you," — Maryna Mientusava tried to end the discussion, while Konstantin got up and left, saying: "I'm ending the broadcast, I just can't."

"That's exactly why we have what we have," — Kaveryn added from somewhere deep in the studio.

"They offered you some valerian drops, Kostsia," — Mientusava tried to defuse the situation.

After the program, Konstantin Kaveryn published a post in which he apologized for his "unacceptable behavior" to both Aliaksandr Shramko and the viewers.

Павялічыць

"And although my position (regarding the essence of the dispute) remains unchanged, I am still ashamed of the form of its expression. One cannot behave like that," — wrote the host.

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