«Why won't a Belarusian learn the Belarusian language? It's just laziness.» Publisher Yaroslav Ivanyuk — on being wanted, the KGB, and language wars

Yaroslav Ivanyuk orders an Americano with an espresso. He doesn't understand ordinary espresso, which is drunk quickly: for him, coffee is an occasion to sit quietly, talk, and look around. In summer, when his wife, a teacher, is on vacation, they drink it in the morning in the yard of their house near Białystok. Squirrels jump on the hazelnut tree, and sometimes rabbits and roe deer come from the forest.

Ivanyuk is a Belarusian publisher, journalist, and one of the most prominent figures of the Belarusian minority in Poland. In 2000, he founded the online library Kamunikat.org and for the next 26 years collected Belarusian books, newspapers, magazines, audio recordings, and archives from all over the world. The project, which started as a website, became one of the largest digital repositories of Belarusian culture, and after 2020 — also a publishing house, bookstore, and platform for authors who cannot publish in Belarus.

A few weeks ago, Yaroslav Ivanyuk's name appeared in Russia's wanted database. The publisher, who was born in Poland and never held Belarusian citizenship, became wanted by Minsk security forces. The Kamunikat.org Foundation was deemed an "extremist formation" by the KGB.

We spoke with Yaroslav Ivanyuk about how being put on a wanted list changed his life, why he bans people for using Russian on Facebook, and how well a person from the Białystok region understands Belarus, which has lived under Lukashenka for more than three decades.

«My first thought was: "Wow! Why a Russian database?"»

Nashaniva: Yaroslav, you were declared wanted for books. What was your first thought when you found out?

Yaroslav Ivanyuk: My first reaction was: "Wow! Why a Russian database?" And then I waved it off and continued with my business. It was a Thursday, and there was a lot to urgently resolve. Only about two hours later did I think: no, something here isn't normal after all.

I published the news on social media. Some congratulated me, others offered condolences, and a third group wrote: "Welcome to the club." One journalist jokingly suggested recording our conversation quickly, saying it's unknown if there would be time later, as in, what if they suddenly arrest and imprison him.

However, my case differs from a situation where Belarus declares its own citizen wanted, and then their name ends up in the Russian database. I am a citizen of Poland by birth. My family has lived in the Białystok region, one could say, for a thousand years. States here changed, but we never moved anywhere.

Perhaps there are people on the wanted list who were born in Belarus and later obtained Polish citizenship. But I have never been a citizen of Belarus, and I conduct all my activities legally in Poland.

Therefore, I informed all Polish institutions that should be interested in this situation: the police, the Internal Security Agency, the prosecutor's office, the Ministries of Internal Affairs and Foreign Affairs, the coordinator of special services in the Prime Minister's Office, the President's Office, the Sejm's Commission for National Minorities, and the Foreign Affairs Commission. I also contacted human rights defenders.

NN: What did your wife say?

YI: Her first question was: "Are you in any danger?"

My wife is generally far from politics. For her, more important are the squirrels jumping on our hazelnut tree, and the rabbits and roe deer that come to the house. She once said that the only service she's interested in is the garbage collection service.

But when journalists started calling and there was a lot of media attention, she understood that the situation was more serious than anything before.

NN: Has anything changed in your life since then?

YI: So far, almost nothing. We are meeting in Vilnius. I'm going to "Pradmova" in Prague, then there will be Warsaw and the Historical Book Fair. For spring, I'm planning a big European tour with writers.

I don't know which countries I won't be able to travel to now. Probably, it's not worth going to Turkey, the UAE, and some Asian countries. But I don't particularly regret it: I didn't like Turkey much, and Dubai's sweets don't taste good either.

Being on the wanted list has had almost no impact on Kamunikat's traffic. Perhaps the numbers have even slightly increased. True, it's hard to determine how many readers in Belarus access it via VPN.

But fear has already affected specific individuals. After the Kamunikat.org foundation was declared an "extremist formation," one of the authors whose book we had just published refused to appear with me at presentations. He did this two days before one of them and didn't go to an already arranged meeting in Riga.

The author explained that his parents remained in Belarus. Yet, he has had a Polish passport for many years. To me, this is very strange. The book has already been published by our "extremist" publishing house. What will refusing to present it change now?

Such behavior shows that the KGB can achieve its goals even outside Belarus. This is precisely what they want: for people to be afraid to cooperate, perform, or publish books. Why should we make their job easier ourselves?

NN: The Belarusian authorities consider you a threat. Do you see yourself as someone capable of threatening the regime?

YI: Every free word is a threat to an authoritarian regime. In that sense, I am a threat. But for Belarus — the one we carry in our hearts — I pose no threat whatsoever.

«It was understood that we are not Poles»

NN: You were born and raised in Poland, and you have Polish citizenship. Who are you: a Pole, a Belarusian, a Polish Belarusian, a Belarusian from the Białystok region?

YI: A Belarusian with Polish citizenship. I was born in the Białystok region, on ethnic Belarusian land, where Belarusians have lived for at least a thousand years. My grandparents and parents spoke the Podlachian dialect of the Belarusian language.

I was born in Bielsk Podlaski, but for the first six years, I lived in my grandfather's village of Pasynki. Almost the entire village was Orthodox and Belarusian; only one family was Polish and Catholic. Everyone around spoke Belarusian.

I started speaking Polish only after my parents built a house in Bielsk and I went to school. At first, there were funny incidents. Mom sometimes took me to work. One of her colleagues was good at drawing and once drew me a rooster. He pointed and said: "Look, Jarek, what a beautiful kogut." And I told him: "You're silly, that's a *pevеn* (rooster), not a *kogut*."

So, what was I to consider myself? At home, we continued to speak our own way. In school, Belarusian was formally considered the language of instruction, though in reality, it was just a separate subject. I started learning literary Belarusian in the second grade.

Later, the Belarusian Lyceum, the Parnas Theater, poet Nadzeya Artymovich, and writer Sakrat Yanovich greatly influenced me. He always repeated that we shouldn't be ashamed, that we should proudly declare everywhere that we are Belarusians, that we are different. Without these people, I wouldn't be where I am now.

NN: Your grandfather, without leaving his village, changed citizenship seven times in his life, and still remained Belarusian. How did that happen? What defined "homeland" in your family?

YI: Yes, that was my maternal grandfather. I didn't know him: he died before I was born. My mother came from the village of Voyshki on the Narew River.

In the family, we hardly ever talked about nationality. It was understood that we were not Poles. We started talking more about Belarusian identity when I entered the lyceum.

At that time, everything seemed simple: a Polish Catholic went to the Tadeusz Kościuszko Polish Lyceum, a Belarusian Orthodox went to the Bronislaw Tarashkevich Belarusian Lyceum. There seemed to be no other path.

Belarusian identity existed in the family without explicit explanations. We just knew who we were.

«For me, Belarus is a land of ruins»

NN: You used to travel a lot to Belarus; how do you remember it?

YI: When we were developing the "Kamunikat" online library, I visited almost the entire country: in the east, north, and south. Not to mention Western Belarus — I was there most often. I even managed to vacation on Lake Narach.

For me, Belarus was always a country I wanted to visit. I knew I would meet friends and see something new. No matter how many times you visit, it always reveals itself differently.

I'm not much of a museum person; I rarely visit exhibitions. So, for me, Belarus is first and foremost a land of ruins. I don't mean a destroyed country, but rather old buildings that have been preserved without repair or reconstruction.

At some point, I realized: maybe it's a good thing they didn't have time to spoil them. When I saw how they started rebuilding the towers in Novogrudok with new bricks, it was a nightmare for me. I'm a historian by education, though I've never worked in that field. Many are now admiring the reconstruction of Kreva. Perhaps if I see it live, my impression will change. But for now, it doesn't look the way I believe Kreva should look.

I consider Mir Castle and Nesvizh Castle to be successful examples. As for what they did in Grodno, fortunately, I've only seen it in photos so far.

NN: When were you last in Belarus?

YI: In March 2020. We were holding "Kamunikat" presentations in Minsk and Baranavichy, and were planning to go to Orsha and Vitebsk as well. But a pandemic was declared in Poland, and I decided to return.

I was traveling from Baranavichy late in the evening. A near-spring storm began: lightning, wind, dark forests all around. You drive, and it feels like the world has ended.

After the 2020 elections, a trip to Belarus would have been a one-way street for me. Especially now that the foundation and I myself are "extremists."

NN: If you were allowed to safely come to Belarus for one day, where would you go?

YI: To Grodno. This city is very dear to me. I would go with my Grodno friends who now live in Białystok.

Павялічыць

«There are things I understand, but don't accept»

NN: During your trips to Belarus, you most often found yourself among Belarusian writers, journalists, historians, and activists. Did you not see Belarus through a very narrow Belarusian-speaking window?

YI: Most likely, yes, I indeed primarily met with the Belarusian intelligentsia there. But I understand that Belarus is Russified and that the Belarusian intelligentsia does not represent the entire society.

Nevertheless, Belarus, like any civilized country, should have its own language. Without Belarusianization, there will be no country we would like to see after the war and Lukashenka's regime end.

Perhaps my hopes are in vain and nothing will come of it. But that doesn't mean that we, especially in emigration, should agree for Belarusians to continue speaking Russian and not learn Belarusian.

NN: You live in a democratic country. Do you truly understand a Belarusian who lives under Lukashenka and knows that their relatives might be punished for their actions?

YI: I really want to believe that I understand Belarusians. But, probably, there are nuances in their behavior that I will never be able to understand. Or I will understand, but won't be able to accept.

For example, I don't understand when a person in emigration doesn't want to be photographed with the white-red-white flag because someone of theirs remained in Belarus. I don't understand the behavior of the author who refused to present an already published book.

We won't achieve anything if we're not braver. I know they might tell me: "You have a Polish passport, you'll never understand us." But, as it turned out, even with a Polish passport, you can end up on a wanted list.

I understand that Belarusian security forces use families as hostages and how difficult that is. Perhaps I truly don't understand something. But I cannot agree with such behavior.

We cannot allow the KGB to achieve even small victories.

«I unfriended one person — an intellectual, a researcher, but he decided he would continue to comment in Russian.»

NN: You wrote on Facebook that you would ban people who leave comments in Russian. What will the Belarusian language gain from this?

YI: I already unfriended one person I had known for a very long time. He is an intellectual, a researcher. But he decided he would continue to comment in Russian.

Language is not just a means of communication. Russian tanks can come after the Russian language, Russian pop culture, and the "Russian world." Ukraine clearly showed how this works.

Events in Latvia also indicate that Russia uses the Russian-speaking minority as a political tool: claiming that their rights are allegedly violated, and consistently developing this theme.

Therefore, something must be done to avoid making the same mistakes. Even if Belarus is Russified today, we must work for the Belarusian language, especially here, abroad.

I know people who switched to Belarusian after 2020 and now speak it everywhere. I know a person who is doing this in Vitebsk right now. If people can speak Belarusian there, why can't we do it in Warsaw or Vilnius?

Once, at the celebration of March 25 in Warsaw, I suggested to a person: "Let's speak Belarusian." And I heard in response: "Don't insist, we have two state languages." And this was in Castle Square, during the celebration of Freedom Day. To me, that's absurd.

NN: One blogger maintained her blog in Belarusian for many years. After returning home to Belarus from Georgia, KGB officers at the border checked her phone and became interested in her Belarusian-language posts. After that, she switched to Russian. In your imagination, who is she?

YI: Sakrat Yanovich used to say in Polish: "Białoruś to nie jest sprawa dla mięczaków," literally: "Belarus is not a matter for cowards."

Unfortunately, to maintain one's position in today's Belarus, one must be a brave person. Mikalai Statkevich, in his book of prison essays "And This is All About You," published by "Kamunikat," reflects extensively on choices made under extreme conditions. I call this book very Bykovian. It's about why people make decisions that don't always cast them in a good light, and which they themselves may later regret.

Perhaps this girl is also ashamed of her decision. But the situation is what it is. Not everyone is capable of behaving like Mikalai Statkevich. I will not give a definitive answer as to whether such people should be considered traitors. It's everyone's personal choice.

What they did to me was also meant to scare me. Me, the people from the foundation, Belarusian publishers, Belarusians from the Białystok region. So they would think: Ivanyuk ended up on the wanted list, maybe we should focus less on such topics. Maybe instead of Belarusian books, we should stick to folk dances, and instead of patriotic poems, folklore songs.

This is precisely the goal of the KGB. In this girl's case, they achieved their goal. But I can understand her more than a person with a Polish passport who is already safe and still refuses to present their own book.

NN: Let's imagine your reader from Mogilev. He buys Belarusian books, is interested in Belarusian culture, but speaks Russian because Belarusian is difficult for him. What's more important: the language a person speaks, or what they do? And can he be a good Belarusian if he never switches to Belarusian?

YI: If a person in Belarus buys Belarusian books and supports independent publishing houses, it speaks to their courage and dignity. But why then not learn the Belarusian language? In my opinion, it's just laziness.

I know Poles, Lithuanians, people from other countries who learned Belarusian because they wanted to. There's a Korean who speaks Belarusian so well you can't distinguish him from a native Belarusian. Why can't a Belarusian patriot learn their own language?

I'm not saying everyone should instantly start speaking Belarusian at home. Some of my acquaintances have already switched to Belarusian in public spaces, though they still speak Russian among themselves. But they've taken the first step.

NN: What if a person speaks Belarusian well, but serves the regime? Does the language make them more Belarusian? Vadzim Hihin, for example, is proficient in Belarusian and can speak it when needed.

YI: For me, both situations are strange: both when a Russian-speaking person supports Belarusian culture, and when a Belarusian-speaking person supports Lukashenka. In a democratic country, different views can exist. But Belarus's case is different.

Take the propagandist Aliaksandr Shpakouski. Some of my Belarusian and Polish friends call him a "soft propagandist." I disagree with this. There is no soft and hard propaganda.

The comparison is crude, but violence remains violence regardless of whether it is committed with or without a condom.

After one of my interviews, Shpakouski called me a "fugitive." As in, look: "fugitives" have already even forgotten their Belarusian language.

Firstly, I didn't flee anywhere. Secondly, I checked his Facebook and found only one post in Belarusian — about me. All the others were in Russian.

The same with Hihin. His natural language of communication is Russian. He uses Belarusian as a propaganda tool.

«We shouldn't divide Belarusians into 'ours' and 'yours'»

NN: Belarusians of the Białystok region preserved their language and culture in Poland for decades. After 2020, tens of thousands of Belarusians arrived here, most of whom speak Russian. I've heard such a reproach against them, that not only do they not speak Belarusian, but they also show little interest in Belarusian affairs.

YI: That's true, it does exist. The beginning was difficult. But after the start of the large wave of emigration, I realized that we, the Belarusian minority in the Białystok region, should not divide people into "ours" and "yours." We now need to find as many common goals as possible, and sometimes pay less attention to what distinguishes us.

"Kamunikat" — both a library, a publishing house, and bookstores — can be a place that unites the Belarusian minority and the new diaspora.

For me, the answer is unequivocal: we are one people. Regardless of where we were born and where we live, we must work for mutual understanding.

NN: "Kamunikat" is called your second son. I know you put a lot of effort into creating it, coming home every day after your main job and working on the website until night. Why did you need this? And what has this "son" taken from and given to you and your family over 26 years?

YI: It took a lot of time and effort. But at a certain point, "Kamunikat" began to give me a sense of joy, satisfaction, and later, pride.

You come home, open the statistics — and there are another thousand visitors. And another thousand.

We preserved many newspapers from the early 1990s where the Belarusian spirit was still felt. Even if they were Russian-speaking. For example, you open the Belarusian police newspaper "On Guard": the texts are predominantly in Russian, but on the first page are "Pahonia" (the historical coat of arms) and the white-red-white flag. And you feel: this is a Belarusian newspaper. That's why I consider "Kamunikat" a truly important project.

NN: All your life you have preserved other people's books, newspapers, voices, and stories. What about yourself are you afraid you won't have time to tell?

YI: I thought you would ask if I intend to write a book myself. No, not yet.

But, perhaps, it would indeed be worthwhile to compile what I have already told journalists about myself. There are things I would like to have time to say. But there's a saying: don't make God laugh with your plans.

So I will say one thing: as long as I have the strength, I will continue to work on "Kamunikat."

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